“你相信直播永远会存在?

“Do you believe that live streaming will always exist?

对,永远会存在。”

Yes, it will.”

奉佑生,有人说他用直播赚了十几亿,上市就是要套现,也有人说他是直播行业厮杀过后的幸存者。但更多的人对奉佑生推崇备至,视映客为直播行业的榜样。

About Yousheng Feng, some people say that he has made over one billion yuan through live streaming and that he aims to cash out by going public. Some other people comment that he is a survivor after the battles in the live broadcast industry. However, more people admire Yousheng Feng and view Inke as a role model in the live streaming industry.

在后移动互联网时代,同几乎所有的直播平台一样,映客的成长经历了一个从野蛮生长到逐步规范的过程。2018年7月12日,映客正式在香港上市,成为港交所娱乐直播第一股。

In the post-mobile era, like the majority of live broadcast platforms, Inke has gone through a process of wild growth to gradually organized management. On July 12, 2018, Inke officially went public in Hong Kong and became the first entertainment live broadcast stock at the Hong Kong Stock Exchange.

两个月前,我们在哈佛见到映客CEO奉佑生,和他的交流中,我们感受到的是他的坦诚、质朴。和17年前他刚到东莞时一样,低调,不张扬,相信勤奋会带来好运。

Two months ago, we met with Inke CEO Yousheng Feng at Harvard. During the interview with him, we felt his genuineness and simplicity. Just as when he first arrived in Dongguan 17 years ago, he still stays low-key and inconspicuous, with the belief that hard work will bring good luck.

他曾说,人注定一生孤独,但技术手段可以缓解某些场景下的孤独,因此他创办了映客。

He once mentioned that people are destined to be alone in life, but technological means can alleviate loneliness under certain scenarios. That’s why he founded Inke.

这一次,他对艾问说,相信创造每一个人的快乐才是人生的最高追求。

This time, he told iAsk that he believes that creating happiness for everyone is the ultimate pursuit of life.

本期《艾问顶级人物》,对话映客CEO奉佑生,谁为直播的明天买单?

In this issue of “iAsk Top Leaders”, we interviewed Inke CEO Yousheng Feng. Who is going to pay for the future of live broadcasts?

艾问:短视频是直播的终结者?

Is short video a terminator to live streaming?

直播永远会存在。

Live streaming will always exist.

艾诚:听到熊猫直播在今年突然宣布倒闭消息的时候,您是觉得这个行业太年轻了?还是太传统了,都开始进入了一轮生死起伏的大潮轮回了?

Gloria Ai: When you heard about the news that Panda TV announced the shutdown out of the blue this year, did you think this industry was too young, or too conventional that it has entered the life cycle from growth to decline?

奉佑生:这是一个正常的现象,企业也好,人也好,都有一个正常的生命周期。阿里也才20年,对不对?中国其实很少存在上百年的企业,这个逻辑是一样的,大家看到互联网本质下,通过资本市场快速催熟一个公司或者一个行业,但其实很少有人关注一个公司背后它的经营现金流和健康情况怎么样,这是很关键的。

Yousheng Feng: This is normal. Both businesses and humans have normal life cycles. Alibaba has only been established for 20 years, right? In fact, there are few companies in China that have existed for over a century. The logic is applicable here as well. People often notice how fast the capital market can facilitate the growth of a company or an industry through the Internet. However, people rarely focus on the operational cash flows and the financial health of a company, which is crucial.

其实现在国内大量的互联网公司都处于没有盈利的边缘,或者盈利还相当艰辛。而且往往容易形成马太效应,垄断性的头部企业把利润都给赚走了。

In fact, a large number of Internet companies in China are barely making profits or struggling to make profits. Moreover, it is very likely to generate the Matthew effect, where the monopolies obtain the largest shares of profits.

回到个体企业来讲,最终一个企业是否良性健康,要关注它的生态,关注它的用户,关注它整个的经营现金流跟它的利润是不是真正能支撑一个企业长久的发展。

Back on the topic of private enterprises, to assess whether a company is healthy or not, we need to pay attention to its ecology, the customer base, the entire operating cash flow and see whether its profits can really support a company’s long-term development.

艾诚:但伴随着短视频行业的迅速崛起,有人说短视频是直播的终结者,您怎么看?

Gloria Ai: But with the rapid growth of the short video industry, some people claim that short video is the terminator to live broadcast. What do you think?

奉佑生:你看大家所认为的长视频会颠覆电视,但其实电视仍然存在,只不过现在社会热点转移的非常快,这也符合互联网特质,符合整个科技行业,就是“摩尔定律”。它更新速度非常非常快,原来三年,现在可能一年一个热点,这是社会发展加速度的一个现象。

Yousheng Feng: People thought long videos would replace TV, but TV still exists. It’s just that nowadays social hotspots are shifting rapidly, which is also in line with the Internet characteristics and the entire technology industry. This is the “Moore’s Law”. It updates at a very high speed. It used to be every three years, yet now there’re new hotspots every year. This reflects the accelerated social development.

直播慢慢演变成互联网里面的一个工具也好,一个商业模式也好,一个形态也好,它照样存在在这个生态里面。长视频到直播,到短视频,甚至到未来可能的各种视频,但是它照样在它的那个生态里面存在的还是很好的。

No matter whether live streaming gradually evolves into a tool on the Internet, a business model or a form of existence, it still stays in this ecology. From long videos to live streaming, short videos, and even various forms of videos possibly in the future, live streaming will still exist well in its ecology.

艾诚:所以你相信直播永远会存在?

Gloria Ai: So you believe that live streaming will always exist?

奉佑生:对,永远会存在。

Yousheng Feng: Yes, it will.

艾问:很多企业注定死路一条?

Many companies are doomed to go bankrupt?

所有人都在想,能不能到下一轮融资,能不能再搞下一轮。

Everyone is wondering whether they can secure the next round of funding and another round.

艾诚:2018年7月,映客在香港上市,在“千播大战”中笑到了最后。我记得您对团队有一个讲话,说我们没有BAT的加持,但是我们通过自己的技术创新和努力,笑到了千播大战的最后。

Gloria Ai: In July 2018, Inke was listed in Hong Kong and became the final survivor of the “Battles of 1000+ live streaming platforms”. I remember you mentioned in your speech to your team that even though your company was not backed up by BAT (Baidu, Alibaba, Tencent), it survived the “Battles of 1000+ live streaming platforms” with its own technological innovation and efforts.

奉佑生:对,这其实是说这个过程,对于很多创业者来讲,把公司一步一步做成规模,活下来,然后再去IPO,这是很多创业者的一个梦想,对吧?其实这个过程中,我认为是自然而然,水到渠成的一个结果,这也证明了团队在残酷的这种竞争下,你能活下来,给自己的一个嘉奖。最终上完市之后,又是回到一个创业的状态和心态。

Yousheng Feng: Yes, this is actually a process. For many entrepreneurs, it is a dream to scale up the company step by step, survive, and then go for the IPO, right? During the process, I think things worked out naturally. It also proves that if you can survive the cruel competition, it’s a reward to yourself. After the firm goes public, you will return to the state and mentality of entrepreneurship.

艾诚:今天去看千播大战里面那些挂掉的、关闭的,或者正在萎缩的这些直播公司,您觉得他们做错了什么?

Gloria Ai: If you look at the live streaming companies that failed, shut down or are declining in the “Battles of 1000+ live streaming platforms”, what do you think they did wrong?

奉佑生:首先是第一个,在市场已经白热化的时候,那么多创业公司冲进来,这完全是一个选择的错误,就是当一个时间窗口已经形成的时候,你再去追别人,你自认为比别人聪明一点,想去追这条路,完全抄着别人去走的时候,99%的情况下死路一条。

Yousheng Feng: First of all, when the market is at its climax, the entry of new startups is a completely wrong choice. When the timing window has been sniped by others, if you chase after them and think you would outsmart them on this path with the same business pattern, 99% chance is that you’re doomed to fail.

至于说已经在这个赛道里面的人,有很好的资源,很好的背景,也拿了很多钱的这些公司。大多数都是因为没有关注现金流,然后拿了一笔资金就在里面各种抢资源,掠夺资源,制造行业混乱,但忽略了一个公司它真正的经营的本质,你是不是获客成本足够低,有足够的用户增长,足够好的商业模型,你能支撑多久?你下一步的路线怎么样?

As for those who have already been established in this sector with premium resources, advantageous backgrounds and abundant funding, most of them failed to pay enough attention to cash flows. Instead, they squandered their funding on snatching resources and creating industry chaos. They ignored the true essence of running a business, that is, whether your customer acquisition cost is low, whether user growth is strong, whether the business model is reasonable, how long the business can last and what the next step would be.

其实很多人在竞争阶段也来不及思考这么多,所有人都在想,是不是能够竞争一块市场下来,能不能到下一轮融资,能不能再搞下一轮,大多数其实都是基于这样一个思路。

In reality, many people don’t have much time to think this through during competition. Everyone is wondering whether they could secure some market shares, obtain the next round of financing and seize another round. That’s the logic behind most of the businesses.

艾问:直播,是让用户为快乐付费?

Is live streaming meant to make users pay for happiness?

5年前,中国的用户认为享受互联网免费果实是天经地义的。

Five years ago, Chinese users took free resources on the Internet for granted.

艾诚:创业互联网音乐未果,您如何发现直播是一个可以创业的领域?

Gloria Ai: Your startup business in Internet music didn’t succeed. How did you realize that the live streaming sector was a fit to start your business in?

奉佑生:我们在2014年探索音乐的商业模式过程中发现,在中国的用户,基于内容的付费,其实用户是没这样习惯的,就是你让他去付个八块钱一个月,他会骂你,凭什么让我付费,用户享受免费的果实,享受互联网免费果实是天经地义的。那我们就思考,什么样的情况下,让用户觉得付费是心甘情愿的。

Yousheng Feng: During the process of exploring the business model of the music sector in 2014, we noticed that Chinese users were not used to paying for content. If you ask them to pay RMB 8 yuan per month, they would accuse you for making them pay. Users are accustomed to enjoying free resources online. They take it for granted. Hence, it intrigued us to think under which scenarios users would be willing to pay.

我们分析来看,在中国互联网的几个商业模式,第一个是广告模式,流量大,像百度;第二个,游戏在中国是个很大的市场,那你发现用户为游戏付费的时候,是心甘情愿的。我们当时也在看,听盛大的一些分享,说有的用户一年能在游戏上玩八千万,对我们来说是一个不可想象的天文数字。

Based on our analysis, there are several business models in the Chinese Internet sector. Firstly, the advertising model relies on large traffic, an example being Baidu; secondly, the gaming industry enjoys a huge market size in China. You may notice that users are willing to pay for games. When we studied the market and heard about Shanda Games’ experience sharing, it was said that some users would spend RMB 80 million on games annually, which was an astronomical figure beyond our imagination.

为什么会有人愿意为之这样付费?我们就去做测试,加音频的社区,让用户能够直接通过手机聊天、唱歌,只是做了个小型社区再加上一些虚拟礼物的打赏,用户的需求就开始爆发了。我们总结,用户为情感的付费是无价的,买来的是快乐,为内容、为功能进行付费,很多买的是限制,买的是方便,很多人内心是痛苦的。

Why would people be willing to pay this much? We tested it out with an audio community, where users could chat and sing via their phone. We just built a small-scaled community with a donate button for virtual gifts and the user demand grew exponentially. Based on our conclusion, users wouldn’t set a price limit for emotions because they are willing to pay for happiness. If they have to pay for content or functions, it’s about lifting restraints and purchasing convenience, which makes it painful for users.

艾诚:为快乐付钱是没有上限的。

Gloria Ai: There is no price limit for paying for happiness.

奉佑生:对。我们当机立断就把这个东西做升级,音频已经证明了这个商业模式的存在,那往下4G已经开始普及了,那基于手机视频这种直播一定存在这样的机会,至少它的商业模式是清晰的。

Yousheng Feng: Right. We decisively upgraded the community. Such a business pattern with audios has been proved viable. As time went by, 4G has become more common. Therefore, live streaming via phones would be a business opportunity. At least the business model is very straightforward.

艾问:股价跌去近60%,担心吗?

The stock price has fallen by nearly 60%. Are you worried?

这所有的东西只是暂时的。

All of this is only temporary.

艾诚:截止2018年底,映客公开的收入是38.61亿元,同比下降2.1%。但是在期内实现了扭亏为盈,纯利是11亿元。目前映客收入的最主要来源是什么?

Gloria Ai: As of the end of 2018, Inke’s publicized revenue was RMB 3.861 billion, down by 2.1% year-on-year. However, during the period, the company turned losses into profits, with a net profit of RMB 1.1 billion. What is the current main source of revenue for Inke?

奉佑生:现在还是互动收入,就是基于用户的打赏。还有一个是来源于广告收入。

Yousheng Feng: Now it is still interactive revenue, which is based on the users’ donations. Another source is from advertising.

艾诚:依靠打赏和广告可持续吗?

Gloria Ai: Is it sustainable to rely on donations and advertising?

奉佑生:我认为这个可持续是说,对互联网来讲,首先直播这个商业模式,它本身对行业来讲是可持续的,我把它作为一个模型来看待。但如果我把它作为一个公式来看,其实核心的,你公司对创新,对未来,对新的人群,是不是有敏锐的眼光和机遇,在这里面去求变,你所有的都必须要求变,那其实来源于是说你对于直播的延伸也好,或者对互动娱乐的延伸也好,在这里面去思考。

Yousheng Feng: I think in terms of sustainability, for the Internet industry, the business model of live streaming itself is sustainable for the industry. I treat it as a model. But if I view it as a formula, in essence, the company needs a sharp business acumen to seek innovation, opportunities and transformations for the future and new consumer base. You will need to constantly make changes. No matter it’s extended from live streaming or interactive entertainment, you should start thinking from here.

艾诚:讨论映客下一步的发展,很多映客的投资人也很关心。映客现金流很好,现金很充裕,但是资本市场上,股价从上市到现在的下跌,您怎么看?

Gloria Ai: Regarding the next step of Inke’s development, many investors of Inke are also very concerned. Inke’s cash flows look promising with abundant cash. However, in the capital market, the stock price has fallen at present since going public. What do you think?

奉佑生:我认为这所有的东西只是暂时的。

Yousheng Feng: I think all of this is only temporary.

艾诚:是投资人看不懂,还是您没说清楚?

Gloria Ai: Is it because investors didn’t understand the big picture or because you didn’t convey the message clearly?

奉佑生:两种情况都有吧,我们的营收和利润在中国的互联网公司里排名是非常前面的,但大家是说看你的增长在哪里。我们其实也有些东西刻意没有和外面去做一个很明确的沟通,我们的风格是希望把一个东西做得差不多了,我才向公众市场公布,给团队足够长的叫做空间保护期,然后让团队能够有充足的时间来磨炼产品。

Yousheng Feng: Maybe both. We are leading on the leaderboard of revenues and profits among Chinese Internet companies, but people are skeptical about our growth. We actually deliberately keep some things from the public. We tend to announce to the public when we’re almost done building a certain product, so that we can provide our team with enough space and protection duration and allow them to refine the product with sufficient time.

映客现在月收入上千万的产品已经有好几款,但外面多大数人都不知道。你知道上千万收入意味着什么?一年三千万利润,意味着中小板的一个创业公司。但这些东西我们并没有说急于去对外公布,因为我觉得有些产品需要三到五年的时间的沉淀,它能成为一个行业的独角兽。

Inke has several products that generate tens of millions of monthly revenues, but the majority of people aren’t aware. Do you know what tens of millions of revenues imply? An annual profit of RMB 30 million reflects the profitability of startups from the SME Board. We didn’t publicize the information in a rush, in that I believe it takes three to five years for some products to grow into industry leaders.

艾问:上市之后开始买买买?

After the company was listed, you started acquiring frequently?

最差的一种投资者是天天管你,觉得他到处是经验。

The worst kind of investor is those who boss you round all the time and consider themselves experienced on all fronts.

艾诚:听说您希望收购更多跟映客业务协同的一些小团队?

Gloria Ai: I heard that you desire to acquire more small teams to collaborate with Inke’s business.

奉佑生:对,其实我们已经收购了两三个团队,收购完之后我们跟它去探讨一些方向,再做一些产品。

Yousheng Feng: Yes, in fact, we have already acquired a couple of teams. After the acquisition, we discussed about our future directions with them and developed more products.

艾诚:用投资的方式去吸收您所谓的更年轻的团队,更前沿的技术,这是您明确的一种打法吗?

Gloria Ai: Is your approach explicitly to attract the so-called younger teams and more cutting-edge technology by investing?

奉佑生:现在肯定是明确的一个打法,账上这么多现金,需要把它的价值发挥出来,躺在银行里面是发挥不出价值的。最终一定是做企业和投资相结合,才能让整个价值去最大化,而且有利于在产业链条纵深的一些布局。

Yousheng Feng: It is definitely a clear approach right now. With so much cash on the bank account, we need to create value. It can’t show its value by staying in our bank account. Eventually, only by operating the business and making investments can we maximize value and facilitate development vertically in the industry chain.

艾诚:那您感受到自己创业和把钱花出去,发现最大的区别是什么?

Gloria Ai: Based on your experience in starting a business and making investments, what do you think is the biggest difference?

奉佑生:区别在于是说,原来自己创业,所有的东西必须聚焦于内部很多东西的管理、增长和产品。但投资的时候,其实你的视野要宽,这反而是一个好事,你可以以小见大,你只是投个5%或者10%,就能够参与你感兴趣的方向,最重要的是你能获得帮助别人成功的快乐。

Yousheng Feng: The difference is that when you start your own business, you must focus on internal management, growth and products. With investing, your vision becomes broader, which is a good thing. You can see a bigger picture from small things. You can join a sector that you’re interested in by investing just 5% or 10% in the company. Most importantly, you can obtain happiness by helping people succeed.

艾诚:作为这样的一个角色和心态的转变,您适应吗?

Gloria Ai: Are you accustomed to such a change in the role and mentality?

奉佑生:因为我是一个从创业过来的人,很多投资人投过我,但我其实能感受到,不同的投资风格对于创业者的一些影响。有些投资人投了钱不管不问,不管你死活,对不对?那这种是属于叫中性的,叫做投资者,反正给了你钱,也不管你。最差的一种投资者是天天管你,然后觉得他到处是经验。好的投资人是说,关键的时候能够帮助创业者去分析,看清这个格局,看清他的战略方向和问题在那里。

Yousheng Feng: Since I have started my own business and received investments from plenty of investors, I can feel the influence on the entrepreneur from various investor styles. Some investors don’t care about your company’s development after investing, right? This is a neutral type, where investors don’t interfere with your business after investing. The worst type of investors is those who boss you round all the time and consider themselves experienced on all fronts. The best investors would help entrepreneurs analyze situations when needed, set a clear strategy and pinpoint business problems.

艾问:给映客的未来画个图?

What’s your vision for Inke?

让快乐更简单。

Make happiness easier.

艾诚:十年之后您预见映客什么样?

Gloria Ai: What do you expect to see for Inke’s future development in ten years?

奉佑生:让快乐更简单。十年之后,可以想象5G基本上已经很成熟,我们更希望在新的这种技术条件下能创造一种更全新的,互动和娱乐的方式,能够给人带来一种非常便捷的体验。

Yousheng Feng: Make happiness easier. In ten years, it is conceivable that 5G technology will basically be well-established. We yearn to create a newer, interactive and entertaining way with the new technology to bring about convenient user experience.

我一直想象未来线下的娱乐方式,一定和线上的娱乐方向互相完美的结合在一起,而不是像现在那么割裂,大家都孤独地坐在一个房间里面娱乐自己。应该可以通过虚拟世界和现实的相结合,和不同地区、远在他乡的朋友,有一个很好的互动和沟通方式。

I have always imagined that offline entertainment in the future must be perfectly integrated with online entertainment, rather than being separated as it is now, where everyone stays alone in a room to entertain themselves. It should be possible to interact and communicate with friends from different regions and far away from home through the combination of virtual world and reality.

艾诚:那十年之后的奉佑生会做什么?

Gloria Ai: What will Yousheng Feng do in ten years?

奉佑生:那时候我想想,50岁了是吧?我认为还会保持一种对新技术、新用户需求的关注,我更希望的是,这十年我能帮助一批我们投资的一些企业,帮助一批真正的创业者取得一些成功。

Yousheng Feng: In ten years, let me see, I’ll be 50 years old, right? I think that I will keep following up with the development of new technologies and the needs of new users. I hope that in the coming decade, I can help a group of companies we’ve invested in and support some true entrepreneurs to succeed.

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